Frank Figliuzzi joins the podcast to talk about his career in the FBI and his bestselling book "The FBI Way: Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence."
Frank Figliuzzi was the assistant director for counterintelligence at the FBI, where he served 25 years as a special agent and directed all espionage investigations across the government. He is a national security contributor and regular columnist for NBC News and MSNBC. He is the host of the popular podcast “The Bureau with Frank Figliuzzi” and he is the author of the national bestseller “The FBI Way: Inside the Bureau’s Code of Excellence.”
Crime or Fiction: Each episode we look at the laws on the books; 2 are real, 1 is fake, and can you guess which one is the fake?
A. It’s illegal to attempt to modify the weather.
B. It’s illegal to skydive while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
C. It’s illegal to drill beyond the earth’s crust.
Disclaimer: The views expressed on this podcast are solely of the speakers and do not reflect the views of the Deputy DA's Association nor the District Attorney.
Questions and comments can be emailed to crimenewsinsider@gmail.com.
Featured in the Top 10 Criminal Law Podcasts!
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Music by: The Only Ocean - "Snake"
Image by: Pixabay user Michael Gaida.
00:00:00 Frank Figliuzzi
I was starting to see the public perception of the FBI eroded, you know, and and without getting into politics.
00:00:07 Frank Figliuzzi
The FBI for right or for wrong, was becoming viewed as a political entity and I said I I can't allow that to keep happening because the mission’s being eroded when an FBI agent shows up.
00:00:20 Frank Figliuzzi
At a citizen’s door, flashes those credentials and asks for help.
00:00:23 Frank Figliuzzi
Whether it's a kidnapping, a terrorist case, or just doing an applicant interview back background interview, they need your help.
00:00:30 Frank Figliuzzi
And so if you have to pause for a second question, the credibility of the mission, the person.
00:00:36 Frank Figliuzzi
We've got a problem.
00:00:43 Jorge Del Portillo
Welcome to Crime News insider.
00:00:45 Jorge Del Portillo
This is Jorge Del Portillo and with me as always, is Laurie Hauf nice to see you Lori.
00:00:49 Laurie Hauf
Nice to see you.
00:00:50 Jorge Del Portillo
You know as prosecutors we work directly with local law enforcement, but sometimes we get to work with federal law enforcement officers and special agents.
00:00:58 Jorge Del Portillo
DEA, FBI.
00:00:59 Jorge Del Portillo
And today we have a very special guest to talk about being an FBI special agent and serving several leadership positions within the FBI and that is none other than Frank Figliuzzi.
00:01:09 Jorge Del Portillo
Frank Figliuzzi was the assistant director for counterintelligence at the FBI, where he served 25 years as special agent and directed all espionage investigations.
00:01:20 Jorge Del Portillo
Across the government is a national security contributor and regular columnist for NBC News and MSNBC.
00:01:26 Jorge Del Portillo
He is the host of the popular podcast the Bureau with Frank Figliuzzi, and he is the author of the national bestseller The FBI Way: Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence.
00:01:36 Jorge Del Portillo
Frank Figliuzzi.
00:01:37 Jorge Del Portillo
Welcome to the podcast.
00:01:38 Frank Figliuzzi
Jorge, it's my pleasure. Laurie,
00:01:40 Frank Figliuzzi
Good to meet you as well and I'm excited about the opportunity to talk about law enforcement, partnership, and leadership.
00:01:47 Frank Figliuzzi
Something I'm passionate about.
00:01:49 Laurie Hauf
We're so happy to have you. Jorge is right.
00:01:51 Laurie Hauf
We, you know I work in gangs and we're dealing with task forces and you know, informal agreements all the time trying to.
00:01:59 Laurie Hauf
To figure out the best way to, on our side, deal with crime on the streets and I think working together is is usually the best way to go.
00:02:09 Laurie Hauf
And you've done pretty much everything at the FBI from what I can tell.
00:02:13 Frank Figliuzzi
The beauty of the of the Bureau is how vast their portfolio is, right, over 300 federal violations.
00:02:23 Frank Figliuzzi
And then on top.
00:02:24 Frank Figliuzzi
Of that, you've.
00:02:25 Frank Figliuzzi
Got the whole national security side of the FBI, which is not necessarily about arrest and conviction.
00:02:32 Frank Figliuzzi
So it's a.
00:02:33 Frank Figliuzzi
It's a.
00:02:33 Frank Figliuzzi
It's an agency that gives you every single opportunity, and then when you get into management you get to see more of the entire FBI and then ultimately you're leading the field office.
00:02:43 Frank Figliuzzi
You've got everything under one.
00:02:45 Frank Figliuzzi
Roof so it's.
00:02:46 Frank Figliuzzi
You know, white collar crime, mortgage fraud, public corruption, organized crime, health care fraud, counterterrorism.
00:02:52 Frank Figliuzzi
Counterintelligence drugs,
00:02:55 Frank Figliuzzi
I, I mean, it just keeps going violent crime.
00:02:57 Frank Figliuzzi
Bank robberies and you know, I mean and.
00:03:00 Frank Figliuzzi
The little known.
00:03:00 Frank Figliuzzi
Violations that I I tell almost it's.
00:03:03 Frank Figliuzzi
Jokes, but people don't know.
00:03:05 Frank Figliuzzi
The FBI is responsible for something called a Migratory Bird Act which is interfering with birds in migration.
00:03:12 Frank Figliuzzi
There's there's something called the National Refrigerator Act, which is the, you know, it's.
00:03:16 Frank Figliuzzi
It's against the law to transport.
00:03:18 Frank Figliuzzi
A refrigerator on interstate commerce.
00:03:19 Frank Figliuzzi
Without that with the door.
00:03:22 Frank Figliuzzi
On because children have died inside.
00:03:24 Frank Figliuzzi
An empty refrigerator so.
00:03:25 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, you get to do everything and and then the whole leadership journey is really getting to live vicariously through other people cases as well.
00:03:33 Jorge Del Portillo
So aside from the Migratory Act in the refrigerator act, what made you want to become an FBI special agent?
00:03:40 Frank Figliuzzi
You know, I I talk about this in the first chapters of my book and it started really young and and you know, so many kids just dream about playing baseball as I did.
00:03:50 Frank Figliuzzi
I wanted to play center field for the Yankees or you know they want to do they.
00:03:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Want to be an astronaut which is something
00:03:54 Frank Figliuzzi
I thought about when I was a very young kid, but
00:03:57 Frank Figliuzzi
You know, for me, growing up in the New York metropolitan area, I was in southern Connecticut.
00:04:02 Frank Figliuzzi
We'd get the news out of New York City and what would be on the news when I was like, 11 years old,
00:04:08 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, it was the FBI cleaning up the mob.
00:04:10 Frank Figliuzzi
It was, you know, they were really battling
00:04:12 Frank Figliuzzi
Organized crime and I thought.
00:04:14 Frank Figliuzzi
This is really cool who?
00:04:15 Frank Figliuzzi
Are these people that you know they use their brains
00:04:18 Frank Figliuzzi
To solve cases and fight bad guys you know and and I thought this.
00:04:23 Frank Figliuzzi
This sounds good, I think I
00:04:24 Frank Figliuzzi
Want to do this and.
00:04:26 Frank Figliuzzi
And so I I literally wrote a letter at.
00:04:28 Frank Figliuzzi
Age 11 to the head of the.
00:04:29 Frank Figliuzzi
FBI in Connecticut.
00:04:30 Frank Figliuzzi
And I say, hey, I'm a kid.
00:04:31 Frank Figliuzzi
I want to be an FBI agent. He responded to me personally and said, hey, here's what you gotta do and you know, get back to us in 1520 years.
00:04:41 Frank Figliuzzi
So you did it.
00:04:42 Laurie Hauf
That's pretty, that's a pretty cool story.
00:04:45 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah yeah, and I and I you know, I did some research and I found out that at the time anyway, it was really all about accounting and lawyers.
00:04:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Although the FBI takes everybody specially today they they have a diverse need of critical skill sets but.
00:04:59 Frank Figliuzzi
But I’m like OK, I'm definitely not gonna study accounting that's out.
00:05:03 Frank Figliuzzi
I guess I'm going to go to
00:05:05 Frank Figliuzzi
Law school and I was.
00:05:06 Frank Figliuzzi
Either going to be a prosecutor or an FBI agent. I had
00:05:09 Frank Figliuzzi
I had offers from DA offices. It was exciting, but you know, the FBI said we're going to give you a bunch of cases on day one that are yours to solve, and a badge and a gun. And you're going to figure it out.
00:05:22 Laurie Hauf
Like yes.
00:05:22 Frank Figliuzzi
I thought
00:05:23 Laurie Hauf
That's for me.
00:05:23 Frank Figliuzzi
And yeah, the prosecutor's offices were saying, well, you're gonna gonna argue motions and it'll be a while before you get to the jury and they were very big prosecutor offices
00:05:32 Frank Figliuzzi
So I was like no, I need more action than that and I was raised with a sense of kind of fairness, justice, equality, a pretty religious household.
00:05:43 Frank Figliuzzi
So the world was black and white, right?
00:05:45 Frank Figliuzzi
And I I wanted I didn't.
00:05:46 Frank Figliuzzi
Want to be on that?
00:05:47 Frank Figliuzzi
The dark side.
00:05:48 Frank Figliuzzi
So I like.
00:05:49 Frank Figliuzzi
This is what I'm gonna do.
00:05:51 Laurie Hauf
Your book you mentioned your book, your book is the FBI way inside the Bureau’s.
00:05:55 Laurie Hauf
Code of Excellence.
00:05:56 Laurie Hauf
Obviously, the FBI has a has a strict training.
00:05:59 Laurie Hauf
You know, even just to just to become an FBI agent.
00:06:02 Laurie Hauf
But what is the the parts of the FBI that essentially called you to be a better person?
00:06:08 Laurie Hauf
Because I think.
00:06:08 Laurie Hauf
That our office I I always say our DA office has made me a better person because I I'm called to a higher standard.
00:06:17 Laurie Hauf
We're, you know, as prosecutors supposed to wear the white hats we're supposed to you.
00:06:21 Laurie Hauf
Know bring truth to the court.
00:06:23 Laurie Hauf
And it it kind of runs through your entire life.
00:06:27 Laurie Hauf
In that way, do you feel like the same is true for the FBI
00:06:31 Laurie Hauf
For you?
00:06:32 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, it's almost like this is a softball
00:06:35 Frank Figliuzzi
Question for me, 'cause now you're.
00:06:36 Frank Figliuzzi
Getting to really the.
00:06:38 Frank Figliuzzi
Core of my my book the FBI Way.
00:06:40 Frank Figliuzzi
The first couple of chapters are, yeah.
00:06:42 Frank Figliuzzi
The whole book is.
00:06:43 Frank Figliuzzi
Really centered around what I call the seven Cs, and it's the it's the seven Cs of values based performance.
00:06:50 Frank Figliuzzi
The concept being that.
00:06:51 Frank Figliuzzi
If you lead and you.
00:06:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Work based on a set of common values in your agency or organization, your family.
00:07:00 Frank Figliuzzi
You're going to be more successful, and so the first couple of Cs.
00:07:05 Frank Figliuzzi
Are code and conservancy. So that the FBI very early, even in the selection process, right?
00:07:12 Frank Figliuzzi
The appli-- arduous.
00:07:13 Frank Figliuzzi
Application process they're looking for people who want to be part of something bigger than themselves and get it.
00:07:20 Frank Figliuzzi
They get the fact that they're going to be part of something that requires values and adherence to a common set of beliefs in order to accomplish the mission.
00:07:31 Frank Figliuzzi
So the FBI protects.
00:07:32 Frank Figliuzzi
America, while it protects and preserves its own values, so I I do a great deal of writing about code, understanding that your core values as a person as an organization really allow you to establish your code.
00:07:46 Frank Figliuzzi
So many companies have never really said yeah we.
00:07:49 Frank Figliuzzi
We only have core values or.
00:07:51 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, there's some mission statement in the lobby.
00:07:52 Frank Figliuzzi
That we wrote, but.
00:07:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Nobody knows what it.
00:07:54 Frank Figliuzzi
Is and well in the FBI.
00:07:57 Frank Figliuzzi
It's quite clear and people can tell you what the core values are.
00:08:00 Frank Figliuzzi
They're listed everywhere people know, and then there's something called Conservancy, which is this notion that we're all part of something we're all stewards of something.
00:08:09 Frank Figliuzzi
Bigger than us, so from really early on you realize it's about me preserving these values.
00:08:16 Frank Figliuzzi
It's not some office down the hall called Integrity and Ethics, although they have that, it's not the Office of Professional Responsibility which I served in briefly.
00:08:25 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, sure they have that, but it's the notion that you, you are responsible for the brand and reputation of the
00:08:30 Frank Figliuzzi
The FBI.
00:08:31 Frank Figliuzzi
Don't you be the one that screws tha tup
00:08:34 Laurie Hauf
Yeah, and I I think I can totally.
00:08:37 Laurie Hauf
That totally resonates with me and I think our office because you know, it's, it's not just about winning cases for us.
00:08:44 Laurie Hauf
It's not just about, you know, the numbers, it's about.
00:08:47 Laurie Hauf
You know, doing the right thing at all times, even if it compromises your case, especially if it leads to.
00:08:54 Laurie Hauf
The protection of somebody who's been charged that is actually innocent, especially if it relates to protecting our victims.
00:09:02 Laurie Hauf
So we just you're right, it is a.
00:09:04 Laurie Hauf
It's a personal commitment that you have to make that then transcends throughout the entire.
00:09:09 Laurie Hauf
Agency. Did you feel like that helped you in in rising through the ranks and becoming a leader at the FBI?
00:09:17 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, there's no question that one of the strong points of the leadership journey.
00:09:21 Frank Figliuzzi
In the FBI
00:09:21 Frank Figliuzzi
Is the requirement that you spend time on the inspection staff, which is a fancy term for audits, performance and program audits.
00:09:30 Frank Figliuzzi
Not only do you get to see the entire breadth of the FBI and its mission and responsibilities, but you have to make some calls, some pretty hard calls.
00:09:38 Frank Figliuzzi
This office is or isn't performing well.
00:09:40 Frank Figliuzzi
This squad hasn't.
00:09:41 Frank Figliuzzi
Done what it's.
00:09:42 Frank Figliuzzi
Supposed to be doing that.
00:09:43 Frank Figliuzzi
Their informant base doesn't match their priorities, or there's a different crime problem in town than what they think there is.
00:09:48 Frank Figliuzzi
All of that is a journey toward.
00:09:51 Frank Figliuzzi
Management and leadership.
00:09:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Understanding what matters most, and if you're going to go up the ranks, you got to spend time traveling on.
00:09:59 Frank Figliuzzi
This audits staff.
00:10:00 Frank Figliuzzi
I ultimately became.
00:10:01 Frank Figliuzzi
The Chief Inspector of the FBI.
00:10:03 Frank Figliuzzi
I did that for a year after being in one of nine inspectors in the FBI.
00:10:08 Frank Figliuzzi
And then, you know, everybody on a more junior.
00:10:11 Frank Figliuzzi
Level travels on these inspection teams and has to decide.
00:10:16 Frank Figliuzzi
What the performance metrics are.
00:10:18 Frank Figliuzzi
So this idea of peer review is really essential.
00:10:21 Frank Figliuzzi
I remember even in my my first year in my first office in the FBI, I was really busy, had a bunch of cases, but my supervisor taps me on the shoulder and he goes, hey Frank, it's your turn to do uh Bureau car Accident Investigation and I.
00:10:35 Frank Figliuzzi
Said what what?
00:10:36 Frank Figliuzzi
What are you talking about and and some some agent on the squad had gotten into a car accident.
00:10:41 Frank Figliuzzi
And I thought.
00:10:41 Frank Figliuzzi
Well OK, this will be a quick thing.
00:10:43 Frank Figliuzzi
I'm certainly not going to get some other agent in trouble.
00:10:46 Frank Figliuzzi
For a car accident.
00:10:47 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, if you don't do it right, it gets kicked back to you, so you're doing witness interviews, Citizen interviews, you're you're drawing sketches, and.
00:10:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Taking photos and.
00:10:54 Frank Figliuzzi
And you're you know you're essentially making a call, and the lesson there is each and every one of us is responsible for upholding.
00:11:02 Jorge Del Portillo
These values, you know, let's talk about your journey through the FBI obviously went through the FBI Academy, which is, you know, 20 weeks and countless hours.
00:11:13 Jorge Del Portillo
To prepare you to be out in the field, do you remember when you first your first assignment as a field special agent and your first case that you investigated and how that um
00:11:24 Jorge Del Portillo
How did you feel handling that?
00:11:27 Frank Figliuzzi
So when you walk out of the Academy, it's quite a feeling you've got.
00:11:31 Frank Figliuzzi
It's really the first.
00:11:32 Frank Figliuzzi
It is the first time you've left the campus with a loaded gun and a badge in your pocket.
00:11:38 Frank Figliuzzi
And the awesome I'll never forget the awesome sense of responsibility.
00:11:43 Frank Figliuzzi
Um there and it's kind of interesting because they they build up your shooting skills, for example.
00:11:48 Frank Figliuzzi
It's one, it's it.
00:11:49 Frank Figliuzzi
The academies 1/3. Firearms 1/3 physical training and defensive tactics and 1/3 academics.
00:11:55 Frank Figliuzzi
In in classroom.
00:11:56 Frank Figliuzzi
So with regard to, you know, really tough shoot, don't shoot situations, shooting proficiency.
00:12:02 Frank Figliuzzi
They build up your confidence.
00:12:04 Frank Figliuzzi
Tremendously on the range, right?
00:12:06 Frank Figliuzzi
And then,
00:12:07 Frank Figliuzzi
Towards your last couple of weeks they try to actually actually knock you down a notch with incredibly difficult.
00:12:14 Frank Figliuzzi
Shoot, don't shoot scenarios on an automated firearms training system.
00:12:18 Frank Figliuzzi
Why did they do that?
00:12:19 Frank Figliuzzi
And I thought.
00:12:20 Frank Figliuzzi
Boy there this.
00:12:21 Frank Figliuzzi
Is demoralizing I.
00:12:22 Frank Figliuzzi
I thought I knew everything about shoot, don't shoot.
00:12:25 Frank Figliuzzi
What they're trying to tell you is.
00:12:27 Frank Figliuzzi
You have an awesome responsibility when you hit that street.
00:12:31 Frank Figliuzzi
It is, you know, it is gonna.
00:12:33 Frank Figliuzzi
You're gonna have some difficult decisions and so get to.
00:12:36 Frank Figliuzzi
They sent this Connecticut Yankee to.
00:12:38 Frank Figliuzzi
Atlanta, GA.
00:12:39 Frank Figliuzzi
For my first field office.
00:12:40 Frank Figliuzzi
I thought I was.
00:12:40 Frank Figliuzzi
In a different planet, but you.
00:12:42 Frank Figliuzzi
Know early on I worked counterterrorism and counterintelligence and you might say, boy, that sounds weird. Atlanta, GA, there's counterterrorism counter Intel? This is all be well before 911.
00:12:51 Frank Figliuzzi
Of course, yeah there is.
00:12:53 Frank Figliuzzi
There is and you get this feeling of my Lord I'm I'm into this national security realm and that there's this sense that all of this is going on beneath the surface.
00:13:03 Frank Figliuzzi
People out there don't.
00:13:04 Frank Figliuzzi
Have a clue
00:13:06 Frank Figliuzzi
About what's going on.
00:13:07 Frank Figliuzzi
In this.
00:13:07 Frank Figliuzzi
Battle for national security everyday right that there are four intelligent services where people get up every day trying to hurt us.
00:13:11 Laurie Hauf
Right?
00:13:14 Frank Figliuzzi
They're counter terror terrorist organizations where people get up every day trying to harm us.
00:13:18 Frank Figliuzzi
And then there's these FBI agents who are trying to do battle with all that.
00:13:22 Frank Figliuzzi
So I I, I eat it all up I.
00:13:24 Frank Figliuzzi
I've loved it.
00:13:25 Frank Figliuzzi
Uh, my had some very successful double agent operations.
00:13:29 Frank Figliuzzi
I described what that is in the book, but you're literally playing chess with adversarial foreign intelligence services, and I I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced.
00:13:37 Frank Figliuzzi
Bread.
00:13:38 Jorge Del Portillo
And one of your double agent that you talked about in the book that you developed and it was working great.
00:13:44 Jorge Del Portillo
And then all of a sudden it stopped.
00:13:46 Jorge Del Portillo
You also talk about in the book that you applied to the counterintelligence at new espionage.
00:13:52 Jorge Del Portillo
I'm sorry, the new economic espionage division and your boss was Robert Hanson. Who is that?
00:13:59 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, yeah, Robert Philip Hanson happens to be the absolute most damaging spy in the history of the FBI.
00:14:08 Frank Figliuzzi
Arguably in the history of the American government.
00:14:12 Laurie Hauf
And not a lot of people know about him either, which is kind of terrifying.
00:14:14 Frank Figliuzzi
Right, well, you know there there have there.
00:14:17 Frank Figliuzzi
Have been movies and books, multiple movies and books, but you know.
00:14:22
I have
00:14:23 Frank Figliuzzi
The unfortunate you know ability to say that I I actually worked for this guy briefly at FBI headquarters in my first supervisory job, and Jorge mentioned, you know, when I was a first office agent in Atlanta.
00:14:35 Frank Figliuzzi
I had this great double agent case going gangbusters against the Russians and.
00:14:40 Frank Figliuzzi
Only year and thought it did come to a dead stop and only years later did I discover that Robert Hanson gave up my case to the Russians and ultimately we believe Robert Hanson was responsible for the death of at least 10 people who were working for the United States but.
00:15:00 Frank Figliuzzi
Were Russians and so so he gave them up.
00:15:03 Frank Figliuzzi
They were executed.
00:15:04 Frank Figliuzzi
Imprisoned, families.
00:15:06 Frank Figliuzzi
Were tortured and.
00:15:07 Laurie Hauf
Another reason why you know your your job as an FBI agent is so critical on your your you know, being being able to have that sense of doing the right thing at all times as it could lead to people dying, right people being executed and.
00:15:24 Laurie Hauf
Major major tragic events happening.
00:15:27 Frank Figliuzzi
We're well and we're right back to that concept of Code and Conservancy because, you know, obviously Robert Hanson did not have the values of of the FBI or even the United States quite frankly, and so the ability to to screen that out is essential.
00:15:43 Frank Figliuzzi
And it failed with him.
00:15:45 Frank Figliuzzi
And what you say?
00:15:46 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, why do you include the story of?
00:15:48 Frank Figliuzzi
The worst spy in FBI history in a book about the excellence of the FBI.
00:15:51 Frank Figliuzzi
I I call it out.
00:15:53 Frank Figliuzzi
It's a complete failure, but I also I included it in a chapter called Credibility.
00:15:57 Frank Figliuzzi
That's one of the other seven Cs.
00:15:59 Frank Figliuzzi
And I put it in there because part of the health of an organization and the test of an organization is when you have this colossal failure.
00:16:06 Frank Figliuzzi
What do you do
00:16:07 Frank Figliuzzi
About it?
00:16:08 Frank Figliuzzi
And you know this example is one where the FBI you know didn't try to hide it.
00:16:12 Frank Figliuzzi
Didn't try to cover it up.
00:16:14 Frank Figliuzzi
They said, you know, I remember the director Louis Freeh.
00:16:17 Frank Figliuzzi
At the time he called the press.
00:16:18 Frank Figliuzzi
Conference since then.
00:16:19 Frank Figliuzzi
Colossal failure, and here's what we're going to do about it.
00:16:21 Frank Figliuzzi
We're going to.
00:16:22 Frank Figliuzzi
Fix the security systems.
00:16:23 Frank Figliuzzi
In the FBI we're.
00:16:24 Frank Figliuzzi
Going to, we're going to do all kinds of polygraphs and financial analysis.
00:16:29 Frank Figliuzzi
Every year for financial analysis every five years for polygraphs, yeah, so you have to get better at it.
00:16:36 Frank Figliuzzi
But the worst thing you can do is try to cover it up.
00:16:39 Jorge Del Portillo
Right, yeah, and I think when listening to your book that really ring true for for us at the San Diego DA's office. Because, you know, we were taught to own your mistakes.
00:16:49 Jorge Del Portillo
You know, be transparent, own your mistakes and that makes you a better person and a better leader.
00:16:54 Jorge Del Portillo
And that's certainly something that's true with the with the FBI way.
00:16:58 Jorge Del Portillo
And your chapter on credibility.
00:17:00 Jorge Del Portillo
So I I want to talk to you also.
00:17:02 Jorge Del Portillo
About owning your mistakes and then also in the difficult position that you handled.
00:17:06 Jorge Del Portillo
That demonstrates a lot of these seven Cs that you talk about in your book.
00:17:10 Jorge Del Portillo
That's the Office of Professional Responsibility.
00:17:13 Jorge Del Portillo
Can you tell us what is that office and what was your role in that office?
00:17:17 Frank Figliuzzi
I think most civilians would kind of label it internal affairs.
00:17:22 Frank Figliuzzi
You know, for want of a better term, but it's it's part of a process of internal investigations and then the adjudication.
00:17:30 Frank Figliuzzi
The hard disciplinary calls once an employee.
00:17:32 Frank Figliuzzi
Is confirms that have violated the values.
00:17:36 Frank Figliuzzi
We're talking about the the the the rules.
00:17:39 Frank Figliuzzi
What do we do about it?
00:17:39 Frank Figliuzzi
And and I I I as a fairly young manager, I was a unit chief in an adjudication unit responsible for deciding discipline in the eastern half of the United States.
00:17:51 Frank Figliuzzi
For for FBI employees found to have.
00:17:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Serious misconduct.
00:17:55 Laurie Hauf
What what did you decide that worked and that didn't work in terms of, you know either the type of consequences or the making sure that everybody knew what the rules were or.
00:18:06 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, I mean now I'll shamelessly plug 2 two additional seven Cswhich are.
00:18:12 Frank Figliuzzi
Compassion and consequences right?
00:18:14 Frank Figliuzzi
And so you can't have a value system if there aren't consequences to violating the value system, but you can't have consequences without compassion.
00:18:24 Frank Figliuzzi
Because guess what word gets out pretty quickly that this is this is a Neanderthal brutal disciplinary.
00:18:32 Frank Figliuzzi
System that doesn't ever take into account the individual stress factors etc.
00:18:38 Frank Figliuzzi
So I think as.
00:18:39 Frank Figliuzzi
This was invaluable.
00:18:40 Frank Figliuzzi
To me as a young manager, not only.
00:18:42 Frank Figliuzzi
To learn what not to do, but to learn the humanity of decision making.
00:18:47 Frank Figliuzzi
Like looking into each and every case, you could have a computer spit out precedent, right?
00:18:51 Frank Figliuzzi
You guys are very familiar with precedent.
00:18:53 Frank Figliuzzi
You could cite precedent all day, but each and every case is is different and so we would get deep into the human factors.
00:19:02 Frank Figliuzzi
With discipline decisions. What stress was this employee under, you know, did we put them under stress?
00:19:08 Frank Figliuzzi
Was this person undercover too long?
00:19:10 Frank Figliuzzi
For example, I write in the book about something called Undercover Syndrome.
00:19:11
Right?
00:19:14 Frank Figliuzzi
Which you know, we we discovered happens with long term undercover.
00:19:18 Frank Figliuzzi
assignments. People actually start shoplifting in some in a kind of subconscious.
00:19:24 Frank Figliuzzi
I think I'm not.
00:19:24 Frank Figliuzzi
I am not a psychologist, but what appears to be a desire to get caught because, you know, we have a good person doing bad things undercover right?
00:19:33 Frank Figliuzzi
And they want to get caught.
00:19:34 Frank Figliuzzi
So like, well, wait a minute we've got to.
00:19:36 Frank Figliuzzi
Change how we do undercover work and and so all of that gets factored in and then certain cases walked in my door that I thought well this is a dismissal, right?
00:19:45 Frank Figliuzzi
This is horrible and then you start getting into the facts and compassion gets applied.
00:19:50 Frank Figliuzzi
You realize under and one of the things I learned was really good people when they're under enough stress and various stressors.
00:19:57 Frank Figliuzzi
In their lives will break and and violate their own personal codes.
00:20:01 Laurie Hauf
You know, and you're you're right that that sort of understanding probably applies.
00:20:06 Laurie Hauf
Across a lot of a lot more agencies or companies or organizations than we think.
00:20:14 Laurie Hauf
They're not undercover, but they are under probably significant.
00:20:18 Laurie Hauf
Some significant amounts of stress at different points depending on what they do and and we don't often ask question the why questions enough.
00:20:28 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, even in you know in the.
00:20:29 Frank Figliuzzi
Prosecution world right. You you.
00:20:31 Frank Figliuzzi
Get sentencing reports.
00:20:32 Frank Figliuzzi
You get probation and.
00:20:33 Frank Figliuzzi
Parole you get you.
00:20:35 Frank Figliuzzi
You, the judge, wants to be informed, right?
00:20:38 Frank Figliuzzi
The jury wants to know what
00:20:40 Frank Figliuzzi
How did this person get here?
00:20:41 Frank Figliuzzi
All all of that is part of.
00:20:43 Frank Figliuzzi
Just the humanity of what we do.
00:20:46 Laurie Hauf
Right?
00:20:46 Jorge Del Portillo
Yeah, and one of the examples that you use in your book is the FBI agent who actually.
00:20:52 Jorge Del Portillo
His wife was addicted and happened to relapse and he actually drove out to buy her some heroin.
00:20:59 Jorge Del Portillo
This came.
00:21:00 Jorge Del Portillo
This case came across your desk.
00:21:02 Frank Figliuzzi
That's an example of where case you know someone who worked for me came in and said, hey boss, just a heads up, we've got a an agent who appears to have purchased heroin with his wife and I said, well, I looked up from my desk so well, that's a termination, and turns out.
00:21:18 Frank Figliuzzi
Right?
00:21:19 Frank Figliuzzi
Turns out it wasn't.
00:21:20 Frank Figliuzzi
And it it wasn't because of as we said, the various stress factors going on in in this agent's life, some of which the Bureau contributed to.
00:21:29 Frank Figliuzzi
Some did not.
00:21:30 Frank Figliuzzi
He had awful.
00:21:31 Frank Figliuzzi
Judgment I don't want you to think.
00:21:32 Frank Figliuzzi
He wasn't disciplined, but.
00:21:34 Frank Figliuzzi
He wasn't terminated, and more importantly, the FBI came in with their employee assistance program and came alongside that family.
00:21:42 Frank Figliuzzi
And said, how can we help?
00:21:43 Frank Figliuzzi
Because he had been mortified and too embarrassed to ask for help.
00:21:46 Frank Figliuzzi
While his wife was struggling with addiction.
00:21:48 Frank Figliuzzi
So yeah, it's it was.
00:21:50 Frank Figliuzzi
It's it's.
00:21:51 Frank Figliuzzi
I got permission to include that story in the book because it does show the compassionate side of discipline.
00:21:57 Jorge Del Portillo
And really, does show.
00:21:58 Jorge Del Portillo
I mean, we're all human.
00:21:59 Jorge Del Portillo
Everyone makes mistakes.
00:22:00 Jorge Del Portillo
And even as prosecutors.
00:22:01 Jorge Del Portillo
Indicators you know, having defendants we we take into account their life.
00:22:06 Jorge Del Portillo
We get mitigation from the defense and try to have this.
00:22:09 Jorge Del Portillo
OK, let's take a step back.
00:22:11 Jorge Del Portillo
Take off our prosecutor hat and.
00:22:12 Jorge Del Portillo
Look at the whole.
00:22:13 Jorge Del Portillo
Person, but that's what the FBI does.
00:22:15 Jorge Del Portillo
They hold them each other to account and you have you have that role in that compassion.
00:22:21 Jorge Del Portillo
I thought that was it.
00:22:22 Jorge Del Portillo
Very, very good to telling example in your.
00:22:25 Frank Figliuzzi
Thanks, you know.
00:22:26 Frank Figliuzzi
It also goes toward that other C credibility of your of your of your system, right?
00:22:30 Frank Figliuzzi
You you lose credibility quickly as a leader if people think you're all about just hammering people.
00:22:35 Frank Figliuzzi
It’s not going to work, you’ll have no credibility.
00:22:38 Jorge Del Portillo
This is kind of a fun question for trial lawyers.
00:22:41 Jorge Del Portillo
We’re always asked, you
00:22:41 Jorge Del Portillo
Know which best?
00:22:42 Jorge Del Portillo
Which movie best depicts like a courtroom scene?
00:22:45 Jorge Del Portillo
And the answer is always My Cousin Vinny.
00:22:46 Jorge Del Portillo
I don't know.
00:22:47 Jorge Del Portillo
That's that's my answer at least.
00:22:49 Jorge Del Portillo
I, I think it's one of the.
00:22:50 Jorge Del Portillo
Most accurate courtroom scenes says.
00:22:52 Laurie Hauf
There's a lot of.
00:22:53 Laurie Hauf
Lawyers that aren't that good.
00:22:54 Laurie Hauf
And they sound exactly like no.
00:22:56 Laurie Hauf
Just kidding.
00:22:59 Jorge Del Portillo
Is there?
00:22:59 Jorge Del Portillo
Is there a a TV show or movie that you feel like oh they they kind of got it right on the FBI?
00:23:04 Jorge Del Portillo
I always think of the Americans you know with counter intelligence and FBI.
00:23:08 Jorge Del Portillo
What do you think?
00:23:08 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, first that that's a great example.
00:23:10 Frank Figliuzzi
You know the again, as we said, the FBI does so many things that we'd have to select various movies or television shows from various aspects of the FBI.
00:23:17 Frank Figliuzzi
But with regard to counterintelligence, I'll tell you it may seem far fetched.
00:23:21 Frank Figliuzzi
But yeah, there are sleeper agents there have been.
00:23:23 Jorge Del Portillo
Oh yeah.
00:23:23 Frank Figliuzzi
Been the FBI.
00:23:25 Frank Figliuzzi
Arrested ten Russian illegals.
00:23:27 Frank Figliuzzi
We call them.
00:23:27
Right?
00:23:28
You know who had?
00:23:29 Frank Figliuzzi
Been in place for 10 years.
00:23:31 Laurie Hauf
It's amazing I can't.
00:23:32 Laurie Hauf
I could not.
00:23:33 Laurie Hauf
Believe that was a true story.
00:23:33 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, and and so the the Americans may seem like you know far.
00:23:37 Frank Figliuzzi
Fetched but no.
00:23:38 Frank Figliuzzi
It's pretty true to life now I'll tell you another show that I think is really quite good is Mind Hunters.
00:23:45 Frank Figliuzzi
It's the executive producer is John Douglas.
00:23:48 Frank Figliuzzi
Perhaps the most well known FBI profiler?
00:23:52 Frank Figliuzzi
In history, his books are great by.
00:23:54 Frank Figliuzzi
The way. That is about.
00:23:55 Frank Figliuzzi
The early days of the FBI behavioral.
00:23:59 Frank Figliuzzi
Profiling behavioral science units how it started and it's extremely accurate and found fascinating series.
00:24:07 Frank Figliuzzi
I think on Netflix.
00:24:09 Jorge Del Portillo
Yes, on Netflix.
00:24:10 Jorge Del Portillo
That's a great show.
00:24:10 Laurie Hauf
That was on Jorge’s list he loves that show.
00:24:11 Jorge Del Portillo
Yes, I have a list here of all these, you know. There's not that many DA shows, but we have FBI, CSI Criminal Minds, Mind Hunter
00:24:20 Laurie Hauf
Well, there's like Law and Order for us, but I always tell jurors that that's not the way it's going to work.
00:24:25 Laurie Hauf
It's we're not going to yell at each other or.
00:24:27 Laurie Hauf
In in trial it's not.
00:24:29 Laurie Hauf
You know it's not.
00:24:29 Frank Figliuzzi
You you don't wrap up.
00:24:30 Laurie Hauf
Going to go that fast.
00:24:31 Frank Figliuzzi
Wrap up every case in an hour with commercials?
00:24:34 Laurie Hauf
With a bow at the end and commercials.
00:24:36 Laurie Hauf
No, that's exactly right.
00:24:36 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, you you're.
00:24:37 Frank Figliuzzi
Right Laurie it it actually you know, in a condensed version in its own way, it does show the the criminal justice process from beginning to end.
00:24:45 Frank Figliuzzi
Now, I often scream at the screen about hey, where's the search warrant?
00:24:49 Frank Figliuzzi
What did?
00:24:49 Laurie Hauf
Right, right, I know that's totally illegal.
00:24:49 Frank Figliuzzi
They do what did they just do?
00:24:52 Frank Figliuzzi
Where's this search warrant?
00:24:56 Jorge Del Portillo
Well Frank, is there any message that you want the public to know either about the FBI or law enforcement?
00:25:01 Jorge Del Portillo
What you've learned over your your long career within the FBI?
00:25:06 Frank Figliuzzi
I mean look the whole point in the book Jorge, the whole point of me writing the book was because I was starting to see.
00:25:14 Frank Figliuzzi
The public perception of the FBI eroded, you know, and and without getting into politics, the FBI for right or for wrong, was becoming viewed as a political entity.
00:25:25 Laurie Hauf
Right?
00:25:25 Frank Figliuzzi
And I said I, I can't allow that to.
00:25:28 Frank Figliuzzi
Keep happening because the mission’s being eroded.
00:25:30 Frank Figliuzzi
When an FBI agent shows up at.
00:25:32 Frank Figliuzzi
A citizen’s dore flashes those credentials.
00:25:34 Frank Figliuzzi
and asksfor help, whether it's a kidnapping, a terrorist case, or just doing an applicant interview back background interview, they need your help and so you have to pause for a second question, the credibility of the mission, the person we've got a problem, so I.
00:25:49 Frank Figliuzzi
Write the book to basically say this.
00:25:51 Frank Figliuzzi
The FBI is far better than it's been portrayed publicly.
00:25:54 Frank Figliuzzi
Here's been my experience.
00:25:55 Frank Figliuzzi
Here's how you can benefit from how the FBI operates under severe stress and still gets it right.
00:26:02 Frank Figliuzzi
The vast majority of the time, so the key here is people the FBI seldom we haven't talked about TV shows and movies that that's on our screen in our family.
00:26:11 Frank Figliuzzi
Rooms but understand there are human beings behind those images and those cases and so even in the earliest days of my podcast I was interviewing every week.
00:26:23 Frank Figliuzzi
Active duty FBI personnel to show.
00:26:25 Frank Figliuzzi
You they have families.
00:26:27 Frank Figliuzzi
They got dogs.
00:26:28 Frank Figliuzzi
You know it's this is where they came from and this is the human they are.
00:26:33 Frank Figliuzzi
And what I was fascinated what I found very interesting is I spent a lot of time in those early podcast episodes about the substance of what they do.
00:26:39 Frank Figliuzzi
We learned a lot of neat things about the.
00:26:41 Frank Figliuzzi
FBI Lab and FBI.
00:26:42 Frank Figliuzzi
Dog handlers and an FBI abroad.
00:26:45 Frank Figliuzzi
But you know what people really told me.
00:26:47 Frank Figliuzzi
They liked was.
00:26:48 Frank Figliuzzi
In the first five or 10 minutes I would spend.
00:26:50 Frank Figliuzzi
Time saying where are you from?
00:26:52 Frank Figliuzzi
What how did you get to the FBI?
00:26:54 Frank Figliuzzi
You what do you do in
00:26:55 Frank Figliuzzi
Your spare time? They loved that.
00:26:57 Frank Figliuzzi
And it's in space on FBI.
00:27:00 Laurie Hauf
It's it's so important because, you know, we're all part of the law enforcement, family, FBI and we work.
00:27:07 Laurie Hauf
You know, together with local agencies and the prosecutor's office, obviously.
00:27:11 Laurie Hauf
And the US Attorney's office. And that was sort of one of our one of our goals between me and Jorge, and our association is, you know, prosecutors.
00:27:20 Laurie Hauf
Recently, you know in in the last couple years have been getting a bad name and you know it's like, gosh we're working our butts off for the right reason and we're we're doing everything we can to keep our community safe and we want to introduce you.
00:27:32 Laurie Hauf
To these average people who you know are your neighbors that are doing this very important job.
00:27:40 Laurie Hauf
Just like you know FBI agents are doing the same exact thing, so I.
00:27:43 Laurie Hauf
Think we we understand your mission and we support it because we're we're really similarly situated in that way.
00:27:50 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, I applaud that effort.
00:27:52 Frank Figliuzzi
We need more.
00:27:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Of that put.
00:27:53 Frank Figliuzzi
The human face on public servants, who often are castigated or you know something, screws up at the highest levels of of an agency and then everyone gets painted.
00:28:03 Frank Figliuzzi
With a broad brush and.
00:28:04 Frank Figliuzzi
People are just trying to keep their head down and and serve the public, and so the more we.
00:28:08 Frank Figliuzzi
Can get that word out the better.
00:28:10 Jorge Del Portillo
Excellent fantastic.
00:28:12 Jorge Del Portillo
The book is called the FBI Way: Inside the Bureau’s Code of Excellence.
00:28:16 Jorge Del Portillo
You can find it anywhere.
00:28:17 Jorge Del Portillo
I listened to the audiobook twice, actually, and it's a great book.
00:28:21 Jorge Del Portillo
I highly recommend it, but before you go, if you would indulge us and play our little game, we're going to.
00:28:27 Jorge Del Portillo
Call it crime.
00:28:28 Jorge Del Portillo
Or fiction, it's like a factor fiction in each.
00:28:31 Jorge Del Portillo
Episode we look at the laws on the books where I come up with three laws, two or real one is fake and I asked my panel.
00:28:36 Jorge Del Portillo
Which one see if they can guess which one is the fake?
00:28:40 Jorge Del Portillo
I'm not going to use the Migratory Act or the refrigerator at 'cause.
00:28:43
I think you.
00:28:44 Jorge Del Portillo
Sniff that out, but the theme is federal laws.
00:28:47 Jorge Del Portillo
These are federal laws on the books from the sky to.
00:28:49 Jorge Del Portillo
The ground. Are you ready?
00:28:51 Frank Figliuzzi
Yep.
00:28:51 Jorge Del Portillo
All right there we go.
00:28:54 Jorge Del Portillo
A It's illegal to attempt to modify the weather.
00:28:59 Jorge Del Portillo
B It's illegal to skydive while under the influence of alcohol or drug.
00:29:04 Jorge Del Portillo
And C, it's illegal to drill beyond the Earth's crust. Two are real, one is fake, and I'll start with Frank as our guest. Which one do you think is
00:29:14 Jorge Del Portillo
The fake?
00:29:16 Frank Figliuzzi
I think B is fake.
00:29:19 Frank Figliuzzi
OK the.
00:29:20 Jorge Del Portillo
Skydiving one?
00:29:21 Jorge Del Portillo
Any thoughts beyond that?
00:29:22 Frank Figliuzzi
I I well OK 'cause I I think that I've read something about interfering with with weather or weather systems.
00:29:32 Frank Figliuzzi
I I think I.
00:29:34 Frank Figliuzzi
Did but I could be I.
00:29:35 Frank Figliuzzi
Could be a bad nightmare I had.
00:29:38 Frank Figliuzzi
And then you know drilling beneath the.
00:29:40 Frank Figliuzzi
Earth's crust? Yeah, that sounds bad to me too. Completely honest with you.
00:29:45 Frank Figliuzzi
That's that's second.
00:29:47 Frank Figliuzzi
For me it's possibly fake.
00:29:48 Frank Figliuzzi
Because I don't know how far we're talking.
00:29:51 Frank Figliuzzi
You know, in terms of oil drilling and all that stuff.
00:29:53 Frank Figliuzzi
But I don't I just I.
00:29:55 Frank Figliuzzi
I guess I picked B because I.
00:29:57 Frank Figliuzzi
I I don't know how legislation developed unless somebody.
00:30:01 Frank Figliuzzi
Just slammed into the ground.
00:30:03 Frank Figliuzzi
Drunk, I don't know who would have written that legislation, but I mean Congress.
00:30:08 Frank Figliuzzi
You're saying federal law.
00:30:09 Frank Figliuzzi
So Congress, yeah, no.
00:30:11 Frank Figliuzzi
I guess it's hard.
00:30:11 Jorge Del Portillo
It's it's either a a congressional law or code of federal regulations.
00:30:11 Frank Figliuzzi
For me to see.
00:30:15 Jorge Del Portillo
I drew from all sites of all sorts of federal laws.
00:30:15 Frank Figliuzzi
Oh CFR?
00:30:18 Jorge Del Portillo
For these
00:30:19 Frank Figliuzzi
Well, I mean, I suppose.
00:30:20 Frank Figliuzzi
It could have to do with the regulation, FAA type and air, Air regulation, flight regulations that whoever is operating a skydiving business can allow an inebriated person on.
00:30:29 Laurie Hauf
Frank knows too much.
00:30:30 Frank Figliuzzi
That would be.
00:30:31 Laurie Hauf
He knows too much.
00:30:31 Laurie Hauf
This is too hard.
00:30:32 Laurie Hauf
He just knows that once.
00:30:32 Frank Figliuzzi
Yeah, that would be similar to commercial flight, right?
00:30:36
The the.
00:30:36 Frank Figliuzzi
Crew is not.
00:30:37 Frank Figliuzzi
Supposed to knowingly let an intoxicated person on.
00:30:40 Frank Figliuzzi
Look, I may have screwed.
00:30:41 Frank Figliuzzi
Up, but I'm still I'm gonna stick with my story.
00:30:43 Jorge Del Portillo
OK B, B is your answer. Laurie, what do you think?
00:30:47 Laurie Hauf
I'm backing Frank because I I am doubling down on this so don't.
00:30:52 Laurie Hauf
Let me down.
00:30:53 Frank Figliuzzi
Well I OK so if I.
00:30:55 Frank Figliuzzi
Were you I'd go with the crust.
00:30:57 Frank Figliuzzi
The Earth’s cust thing, but hey.
00:30:59 Frank Figliuzzi
What do I know?
00:31:01 Jorge Del Portillo
Alright, B is your final answer.
00:31:01 Laurie Hauf
Right, right?
00:31:03 Jorge Del Portillo
Sorry, yeah alright.
00:31:04 Jorge Del Portillo
Let's start with A since you both agree it's illegal to modify the weather.
00:31:08 Jorge Del Portillo
You both think this is a law in the books and this is.
00:31:10 Jorge Del Portillo
A law on the books.
00:31:11 Jorge Del Portillo
It is 15 USC 330a. No person may engage or attempt to engage in any weather modification activity in the United States unless you submit to the Secretary.
00:31:23 Jorge Del Portillo
Reports asking their permission.
00:31:25 Jorge Del Portillo
Secretary of Commerce apparently, so.
00:31:28 Jorge Del Portillo
The term of.
00:31:29 Jorge Del Portillo
Weather modification means any activity performed with the intention of producing artificial changes in the.
00:31:37 Jorge Del Portillo
Atmosphere essentially, so that’s the law.
00:31:38 Frank Figliuzzi
So you just say we had a former president who suggested nuking.
00:31:42 Frank Figliuzzi
A hurricane.
00:31:42 Frank Figliuzzi
That would be illegal?
00:31:44 Speaker 4
That's that's what we yeah.
00:31:44 Laurie Hauf
Unless he got permission.
00:31:46 Frank Figliuzzi
OK, unless he.
00:31:46 Frank Figliuzzi
Got permission.
00:31:47 Frank Figliuzzi
Which he probably could have.
00:31:50 Jorge Del Portillo
There you go.
00:31:51 Jorge Del Portillo
OK, let's go to in order and B it's illegal.
00:31:53 Jorge Del Portillo
Skydive all under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
00:31:56 Jorge Del Portillo
Both of our panelists here think that one is a fake.
00:31:59 Jorge Del Portillo
And this one.
00:31:59 Jorge Del Portillo
Is real it is a CFR, so I was cheating a little bit there.
00:32:04 Jorge Del Portillo
It's 14 CFR .
00:32:05 Jorge Del Portillo
105
00:32:06 Jorge Del Portillo
.7 no person may conduct a parachute.
00:32:09 Jorge Del Portillo
operation and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation if that person is or appears to be under the influence of.
00:32:17 Jorge Del Portillo
Alcohol or drugs.
00:32:19 Jorge Del Portillo
There you go.
00:32:19 Laurie Hauf
Yep, so you started rethinking it.
00:32:20 Laurie Hauf
Frank, yeah.
00:32:21 Frank Figliuzzi
I just like to point out that the only way I would jump out of.
00:32:23 Frank Figliuzzi
An airplane would be if I were inebriated.
00:32:26 Jorge Del Portillo
It’s a Catch-22.
00:32:28 Jorge Del Portillo
Yeah, you have a necessity defense there.
00:32:30 Frank Figliuzzi
You go.
00:32:30
That's right.
00:32:32 Jorge Del Portillo
That'll means C, it's illegal to drill beyond the Earth's crust that is not a law on the books.
00:32:36 Jorge Del Portillo
I made that up.
00:32:37 Jorge Del Portillo
No one is actually drilling, yeah.
00:32:38 Laurie Hauf
Or he's really good.
00:32:39 Laurie Hauf
At this, he's making fake laws.
00:32:40
I I looked it.
00:32:42 Jorge Del Portillo
Up just in case and no one has ever drilled beyond the Earth's crust. The Russians actually spent 24 years trying to drill into.
00:32:49 Jorge Del Portillo
The crust a single 23 centimeter hole and they went about 7 1/2 miles deep and stopped.
00:32:56 Jorge Del Portillo
It was too hot and it messed up.
00:32:58 Jorge Del Portillo
Their equipment so that’s.
00:32:58 Laurie Hauf
Frank, is pretending he doesn't know about this, but this was part of his counterintelligence mission.
00:33:03 Jorge Del Portillo
Exactly, it's classified.
00:33:04 Laurie Hauf
For air.
00:33:05 Frank Figliuzzi
The Russians had to do.
00:33:06 Frank Figliuzzi
It I knew it.
00:33:07 Jorge Del Portillo
I had to do something Russian related there so well.
00:33:11 Jorge Del Portillo
Thank you so much.
00:33:12 Jorge Del Portillo
Frank Figliuzzi.
00:33:13 Jorge Del Portillo
Such an honor and privilege to have you on our very small podcast I'm I'm so happy that you came on and shared with us your experience at the FBI.
00:33:22 Jorge Del Portillo
And your book is tremendous and I encourage everyone out there to take a listen to the book or by the book and read it and listen to the podcast of Bureau with Frank Figliuzzi.
00:33:32 Jorge Del Portillo
Thank you so much sir.
00:33:33 Frank Figliuzzi
You have been very kind and gracious.
00:33:36 Frank Figliuzzi
Thanks for asking me and also thanks to you and all of your colleagues for what you do.
00:33:40 Frank Figliuzzi
To serve the public, thank you.
00:33:42 Laurie Hauf
Thank you Frank.
00:33:42 Jorge Del Portillo
I'm thinking.
00:33:43 Laurie Hauf
It was a pleasure.
00:33:45 Jorge Del Portillo
And until next time this is the Crime.
00:33:47 Jorge Del Portillo
News Insider podcast.
00:34:03 Jorge Del Portillo
The views expressed on this podcast are solely of the speakers.
00:34:06 Jorge Del Portillo
And do not reflect the views of the Deputy DA Association nor the District Attorney.
00:34:10 Jorge Del Portillo
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00:34:21 Jorge Del Portillo
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